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The reason the accurate assumption is made that this game is for a very small subset of people is that you have to fully buy into the legitimacy of their fairly nebulous sportsmanship system and try to drive according to that. That isn't racing; it's determining who most adheres to what Polyphony apparently thinks video game racing should be. I should be the market for this game. I've loved past GT games and still love the genre, but everything about this is so off-putting.

I desperately wanted this game to be great because PS4 owners deserve a quality first-party racing game, and because if it had been a great game, the Forza series might have had to respond with moves like trimming the loot crate shit. Sadly, GT Sport isn't half the game that I and many others hoped it would be. Moreover, their statements as to what this game actually was were murky at best, because this wasn't Gran Turismo 7 until it totally was.

This is a shell of past GT games in virtually every respect, so billing it as Gran Turismo 7 is a disservice to the franchise itself and the fans that expected that standard and did not get it here. And there's no excuse. This thing has been in the pipes for nearly four years and was delayed a year, yet people are still saying it needed more time.

I will fondly remember my time with GT3 and GT4 and lament that the franchise has been reduced to this. The whole discussion around this game is a tornado of former Gran Turismo fans vs people who enjoy competitive online racing. One side seems to want what old GT used to be.. I'm seeing so many other GT players on the net who are raising their hands to the sky and praising the lord that this game has good online because they always thought the AI and offline components of the series were boring, dull, and pointless for them.

You just can't please everyone. This series has always been polarizing and they're continuing that trend. That other segment of people, the competitive online racing people, think GT Sport is pretty great. I wrote it in the other thread but this game is essentially targeting iRacing and is better in almost every way. To me, it was clear as day what this game was for years.

For other people, apparently not. It also doesn't have a "7" on it so that immediately tells me it's not a normal entry into the series. Looking at the back of the box now, with what little information there is because half the box has to be covered with legal crap, I don't see the word "Career" or "Single-Player" or much of anything useful honestly.. I think the main take away point, something I also wrote in previous posts, is that GT Sport set out to do online racing right and it has succeeded.

It's better than just about anything else out there for your average online player. If someone here is curious about this game and hearing the thoughts of the people it was intended for, this video can help with that. All the complaints about the rating systems and ghosting etc are discussed here, and when you are playing the game at a level it was designed for, it works pretty good. And yea, that's me politely saying that it wasn't meant for people of Jeff's skill level. If he did want to play racing games of this type which we know he doesn't then he would need to practice a lot more before stepping into something at this level.

I guess something else I want to touch on but I'm a little hesitant because of the way it tends to come out, the way it sounds even to me writing it, is "pretentious" or elitist or whatever. I see people talking about how the game is at fault for not teaching them. That is what all the driving tests are for. But you can't just do what Jeff does and say "Well this test wants me to go around a corner. Yippee" and then drive around the corner. If you want to understand the nuances of driving around a corner then you have to read the text.

It's been this way since GT2. If they make a video about it, people would say it's obnoxious or they don't want to watch a video. So the game drip feeds the information to you as you go. They give you different drivetrain layouts and tire compounds so you can see and feel the difference. Obviously if you just shut your mind off and think "Ugh another test that makes me drive around a corner.

If you don't like the format of these tests than you can seek guidance elsewhere. There are entire Youtube series Sim Racing that attempt to explain and teach the concepts of performance driving, based in real life OR in racing games.

Original Post

Or you can go buy a book: Skip Barber's Going Faster! Mastering the Art of Race Driving is a pretty fundamental read. The point I'm trying to make is that performance driving is complex. It takes a lot of practice.

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It's not necessarily something you can teach in 5 seconds in a game. The payout for all that hard work? Some of these concepts specifically the "Racing Line" can be applied to just about any racing game or real life obviously , from Need for Speed: And before an army of people tells me this is way over the top of what they want out of video games.. That is why they make racing games like NFS or Forza with all the assists on. With GT Sport, they decided to swing more toward the iRacing end of the spectrum, probably because everyone complained about single player GT for years and making an online based racing platform will potentially allow them to rake in tons of cash in DLC over the coming years.

I'm certainly not in love with it but, like Jeff often says about weird stuff, it can be so fascinating trying to understand the decisions behind how games are designed. I think the original poster just feels the GB guys are being a little dismissive when it comes to GT Sport, but I've been around here long enough to see that is how they are with every GT game. It just isn't their thing. I actually intended for this to just be a few sentences but then I get carried away. And then I look like that sort of person when they laugh and joke on the podcast "Don't read the comments on our video.

Some video game people can be insufferable ha ha ha" which feels a little unfair to me lol. The crazy thing to me is that it seems hyper specific to a tiny crowd, isn't incredibly obvious about that initially, and offers no path forward to really getting better at the way it wants you to play instead. As someone who's first home console game was Formula 1 '98, I totally get the appeal of a good race where everyone is following the regulations and not bashing one another.

Honestly, if it's well implemented, I'm more in favour of that kind of system for a Gran Turismo or a Forza. In a sim, I'd rather play against players that are taking it seriously. However, I suspect that if you eliminate all the players who don't want to play online and all the players who don't want to bash the other cars around, you'd be left with a very specific and small subset of people - and someone like myself, who would want to play that way but isn't particularly serious or practised about racing games, would likely feel quickly outclassed by the "hardcore" crowd and move on to something else instead.

There's something very very strange and unnatural about this video, like an uncanny valley of physics and sound, it's so bizarre to watch. The game was essentially sold under false pretenses. People expect a certain thing with the Gran Turismo name. It would have been better to sell it under a different name and make it clear that it's its own thing. Even with that and whatever legitimate appeal this has, the thing seems bare bones. Totally, 'Sport' is not nearly enough to demonstrate the chasm in between me and this games target audience. No one will read it.

Make it interactive, make it a whole production. Hire a few programmers and make an amazing crash course on racing with integrity. I mean I get that dirt tracks are not their specialty but it looks like they are driving on very smooth ice most of the time. No road noise, dirt, or gravel kicking up makes it super awkward.

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No music playing either which most other racers give you the option to turn off as they should probably isn't helping either. That's what GT has always looked to me. Super plain, flat, lifeless, sterile I assume the criticism is coming from people like me. I've played every previous GT maybe not 6, it's hard to remember and every Forza game. I like that style of racing game, but I never play online.

I don't want to get really good at racing, I want to drive cool cars I could never afford around great looking tracks. I also want to be able to collect and upgrade cars. Those are the things I liked about previous GT and Forza games, not the simulation racing. I understand that some people liked the simulation racing and never touched the single-player stuff.

That's fine, but that's not all Gran Turismo is. If they wanted to make console iRacing, then they should have called it something else.

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Not having a number on the end doesn't mean I should expect it to be so substantially different from other games in the series. My copy of Gran Turismo Sport is coming today. After reading more about the game, I'm going to send it back unopened. I knew they were focusing on online racing, but I didn't know that was to the exclusion of the single-player stuff.

I was expecting a full Gran Turismo game. Gran Turismo has always been a bit up its own ass when it comes to racing culture, but that was easy to ignore and focus on collecting and upgrading cars. Judging from the quick look the problem isnt the game is focused in racing the problem is the game is only focused on the super hardcore, i can wait 30 minutes to race crowd.

Like you only have 16 player lobbies and no matchmaking? You call people unsportsmanlike for simply being bad at the game? Always online with bare bones online and a save that only works online. Its like they only built one game mode for one set of fans and said fuck every body else. Also that ghost system looked really bad. I just have no idea how that could even be done. The small amount of text was more in older GT games in the driving tests seems pretty self explanatory to me.

It's written in layman's terms. They also added the little 30 second video clips with narration. Just looking at it now, the narrator actually just reads the text aloud for that test. I'm not sure what more could be done, even with a massive team and budget spent just on these little tests. At some point, it's just a super basic thing that someone has to try themselves and experiment to learn. They have even tried weird mini-games in the past and are now in Mission Challenges like driving through piles of cones to make this stuff more exciting.

Which is why I'm very interested in hearing Jeff or someone else at his skill level actually ask the questions. What exactly is it that the person doesn't understand or wants to understand about going around a corner faster? Perhaps then you could maybe identify what isn't being conveyed through the video and text information that is already on screen.

I have my own weird fantasy that if I were ever to be part of Giant Bomb, I'd love to do some sort of series with racing games. Drew was the only person remotely interested in more realistic stuff and was pretty open minded about it but sadly he is gone. Could I make videos with Jeff that would also be fun to watch? Then again, as you said, people don't necessarily want to watch this stuff.. It's like if I sat here saying I want to learn guitar but I don't want to watch anything, read anything, or take classes. All I want to do is physically play it.

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So is it then fair for me to sit and strum on it and complain that I can't play a song? Or is the problem that the world hasn't created a way for me to quickly learn guitar in some idealized, fun manor? Yes there are all the plastic instrument games. And Rocksmith is probably the GT Sport equivalent. Guitar Hero and Rock Band are just super goofy approximations at this with colorful buttons and effects but is that going to make it any easier for you to look at sheet music and understand all the strings and notes?

Again, you just can't please everyone. There is too wide a range of skill, knowledge, and interest for there to be a one size fits all. I know if they made some crazy elaborate license system I'd be somewhat annoyed and consider it a waste of time and money since it'll take me 5 mins to blow through it, meanwhile the rest of the game theoretically suffers for it.

TBH, I really can't disagree more. If you took even the smallest amount of time to check out the game before buying it you could easily tell this was not a traditional GT. GT has always been a semi-sim racing game that tries to find a balance between super-sim and "fun"-sim for lack of a better word. I appreciate that, and I feel like there will be a larger pool of more laid-back drivers like myself to race against. Instead of playing a super-sim game like iRacing where there will be a much higher percent of people taking it ultra seriously and making it harder for me to find good races if I'm only playing sporadically.

I just want to race other people in a competitive environment with lower-powered production cars the N class basically. I wouldn't get too caught up on how Jeff and the gang feel about this game. I'm really enjoying it and it does have a more friendly environment than say an iRacing, which is pretty much impenetrable now unless you're already invested.

I honestly don't know how they could've communicated how this game functions better. People can call it a weird game for serious people, but I'm not a serious player and I'm finding a good balance between sim and arcade here. But as far as direction of the game goes, people have a right to be upset IMHO. It is trying something new and as such people who wanted a single player collect-a-thon will probably be upset. I hope that the next entry can somehow appeal to both sides, though I don't know how much more effort that would be. Hm, some of this reminds me of discussions about fighting games that have happened here in the past.

Whenever someone talks about not understanding fighting games, or "not having the reactions" for it, or not getting why competitive players care about frame data, I'm tempted to and often do launch into an explanation of frame traps and attack-block-throw equilibria, like as though even my most eloquent attempt to explain these things in an accessible manner is going to amount to something more than a wall of text that casual players are just going to bounce off of.

This is the feeling I got when I read seikenfreak 's post, though for my part, I at least feel like I could find myself digging up some of those resources if I ever find the spare time and wherewithal to learn competitive motorsports racing on a deeper level.

The deepest I've ever been at is playing Forza Horizon games sans assists and taking corners efficiently without leaving a big trail of rubber behind me on the approach. Does that count for anything?

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I also think that this bit about AI opponents being mundane is a bit shit -- it means that developers should be trying to make AI that drives more compellingly, and is constrained by similar limitations to those natural limitations e. I don't know how Forza's drivatars have fared not very well? Shadows allowed me to get a lot of games in against a curve of gradually improving facsimiles of human players on demand it may have helped that I got in at launch of the feature, so my improvement was interwoven with the training of everyone's Shadows , whereas typically online you get matched against either incompetents or people who destroy you very quickly often using cheese that doesn't really focus around the core mind games you need to onboard to really "get it" , neither of which helps a lot.

I think if GT sport wanted more mainstream, casual players to get interested in professional motorsports trappings, then the game itself should've offered AI opponents in single-player modes who played the interesting kind of motorsports racing that the motorsports crowd is claiming is possible against real, good, sportsmanlike players. And yes, this is probably very difficult. It's also very difficult in fighting games, but Iron Galaxy more-or-less pulled it off anyway.

This is a part that I don't even think fighting games have done yet, and I think if someone big like Capcom or NRS or maybe even an indie with some luck had Iron Galaxy's AI tech and built a story mode where players gradually got introduced to tools like fireballs and DPs and throws and things with frame advantage, where you got freeze-time moments where some wise sensei explained the theory behind the bad guy's terrifying new technique and what it meant for the match and had you do some drills against it before resuming, then fighting games would become a whole lot less obscure.

See posts after this one. Then I saw nothing more about the game until now. Maybe if they called it something like "Gran Turismo: Competitive Motorsport", and made a reveal trailer that played up competitive sportsmanship somehow, then people would've realized it was about rules and sportsmanship and seriousness and whatnot.

I'm not sure this is enough to separate expectations of the product from, say, what you expect from a Forza Motorsport game, but I'm not sure how I'd bring in more references to sportsmanship without making the trailer really unappealing. Again relating to fighting games, look what happened when Capcom released Street Fighter V with such barebones single player content in order to make the start of the Capcom Pro tour. Although they also made the end of the financial year, and competitive players also complained about the game a lot: Not that it really matters, and I don't know if you play guitar, but Mario Kart is a hell of a lot closer to actual motorsports than either of the plastic guitar games are to actually playing a guitar competently, to say nothing of Forza or traditional GT.

Absolutely zero skills transfer from Guitar Hero over to actual guitar playing, whereas you said it yourself: If there's anything to gain from this comparison, I think it's that GT Sport absolutely could've used the same basic tech to provide a traditional GT experience as well, i. That makes the focus of GT sport on motorsports more of a product of the dev shop deciding not to bother making that content, or, less shittily, not having the resources to put into extensive single-player content. Which isn't to automatically presume that they "wasted" their budget on competitive motorsports features -- my naive guess would be that high-production-value single player content would cost an order of magnitude more to make.

The one that said "motorsports" in it multiple times, and showed the FiA cup and numerous other racing film? It totally played up the motorsports angle. So while I can totally understand why people would be disappointed with it, I cannot understand how they can think there were misled or lied to about what the game was going to be. Like I said, I think they have been super upfront about it. But my brain recalls seeing some sort of teaser where they played up sneak-peeks of luxury sports cars without sponsor logos painted all over them, that could almost have just been a Forza Horizon teaser.

Having just googled around a bit, I guess I'm imagining it. You never play old games? What if you want to play GT Sport in 10 years but the servers get shut down for next gran Turismo? Thanks for the response. I hope I don't come across as preachy as I know that won't get anywhere. But I do think there is an interesting discussion around this game, which in a broader sense applies to most games now.

The whole "taking the game in a new direction" thing is one of these more recent pitches in the industry that can get me really worked up and frustrated and I'm almost certain posts on here can be found of me raging out about it. It's a completely different game at that point so why not just call it something else?

Unfortunately I think marketers and such probably demand that a household name be attached so it'll attract an audience. All of this could be applied to GT Sport, except I think this whole series seems to really be the baby of one man at least that is how it has been represented and Sony just lets him do whatever he wants, and thus each GT iteration is as much as Polyphony can do, spending all that money and as much time as possible before Sony cuts them loose and casts them off to sea.

Every game feels like it's his, flaws and all. I put Kaz on the level of a Kojima. That's another whole separate conversation. Your response to the guitar thing is as I suspected, though I think my Rocksmith comparison might hold some ground as I thought about it more. I believe it can be used with a real guitar. Can it at least teach you the higher concepts of what you're doing exactly? That is where these more sim-oriented racing came come from.

Most people who have driven a car, and certainly anyone who has driven one on a racetrack at speed, can tell you that the most important part--the physical feeling in your butt and hands, of driving at speed can't really be taught through these games. But they absolutely can teach you the broader concepts. Like why does a front wheel drive car behave differently than a mid-engine rear wheel drive car just to give an example. I'll avoid going on a whole separate rant here about people who play these sorts of games, having never driven a sporty car, a car on track, or sometimes don't even drive in general, proclaim that one of these handles "better" or more "realistically" than another.

You seem to have knowledge of fighting games. Something that popped into my head was the idea that fighting games are a digital input vs these sim-ish driving games are analogue when used with a wheel as is intended. It seems like it would be somewhat unique in the e-sports segment to me as the closest comparable aspect I can think of would be a players physical mouse movements in an FPS game. It's hard for me to put a word on it other than analogue..

Does this seem far fetched to you? I was thinking about it from this perspective because of the whole teaching discussion. How could a game like this teach someone, in a way they haven't already done, to be a better driver? So much of driving games are about feel. This is why using a wheel is practically mandatory if you want to get more involved. It's also why people in the community can spend all day arguing about force feedback and how they think the wheel should "feel". Can that feeling be taught? I still say the best way is to just play the game.

At some point the onus is on the player to learn and if they don't want to read or listen then the best thing is to just drive.

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For anyone like that, I absolutely think one of the best ways to improve is to just pick a basic Time Trial mode, enable your ghost, pick a track and car you like and then just do lap after lap. Keep trying to one up yourself. Sometimes you can get into a zen state and suddenly you've done laps and it doesn't even feel like it. You become laser focused, assuming you find this activity engaging. It can be more fun than you think to try and one up yourself.

Just wanted to embed the video proper. I hadn't seen this since its release but its exactly how I remember it. I wish I had records of my AIM chat with my friend because I distinctly remember talking to him about it saying.. Maybe this is a separate thing from GT7". It'll be interesting to see if this becomes GT's "Horizon".

They run both games parallel. Doesn't seem completely insane assuming they just share the assets. I'd also pin GT Sport as a on-going platform instead of having iterative releases like Horizon. So yea, if they see enough people complaining about the lack of single player content or the traditional GT career mode, a offline focused GT7 doesn't seem impossible. If it's a platform, what are they going to do to make money? Are they hoping for some FIA support? They don't do car packs and, given the sports aspect, selling more powerful models would muddy the competition up.

Actually I play a lot of older games. But I also understand that times are changing and there will be plenty of games that will not survive the server shutdowns in years. Of course this doubly applies to games that are online and multiplayer focused.

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So while I would always love to have more offline stuff, and I would definitely prefer more of GT: S to be available offline like all the campaign stuff I view it more in light with a game like Overwatch that will have a death-date; and so I should just enjoy it while I can. Also, say you are interested in like.. I dunno, the GT series not the game, but a tin-top, production based championship I believe you could buy a pack that included every race track required for that season and a car or something.

Not to mention to mention iRacing requires a subscription fee on top of all this. People would flip their shit if they took this pricing tier internet already does about iRacing in something more mainstream like GT Sport yes, this is definitely more mainstream than iRacing , but if they were to chop this down to more traditional DLC pricing, it could be very popular.

Note though that iRacing has about 80 real world track locations not counting individual variations compared to GT Sport which has 6. But iRacing began in summer and has been releasing content since then. This would go with the popular 'a la carte' structure that services are using these days. You only need to buy what you want. I also think it would be smart if they offered package deals on cars based on the group structure they have now.

An example here would be.. They could also offer larger expansions, if you will, for whole new race series. Formula 1 is weirdly absent from the available cars and tracks, yet Lewis Hamilton current and 3 time world champion is mentioned in the game, and was seen wearing a Gran Turismo sponsored hat at the latest event. Polyphony said when GT Sport was originally announced that the in-game seasons would actually run alongside the real events I don't know if this is still the plan. Lets say at the beginning of the season is about to end they offer a F1 expansion.

It includes a couple cars and every track from the season. That doesn't seem super off the wall to me when you figure you won't have to spend that every year, and from the competitive online racer view, that is an entire year worth of content at least. Or, if you're like me, and don't care too much for F1, they could still offer the tracks individually at the lesser price bracket. Another thing to factor in here is how the base game price is likely going to rapidly decline as DLC is released.

The problem here is that Polyphony has never really followed up too well with DLC in the previous games. I'm not sure if they are capable. Yet, there is clearly a thin amount of base content in GT Sport but we've seen them mention and laser scan various other locations over the years. Are they holding it all back to release alongside their real world counterpart events?

They were seen laser scanning the Isle of Man TT course some time ago which would be absolutely incredible and possibly beat out the Nurburgring for awesomeness.


They apparently partnered with whomever on Pikes Peak and I think were seen scanning that. Here we are again.. I wrote out this whole thing just because. Just so people know, I don't like writing. I almost failed out of English class in my high school senior year because I never wanted to write anything. Get me on something I'm passionate about though and I can't stfu lol. Oh yea and another tidbit: And where is devilz anyway: P One of the few people I see on here around car stuff. Looks like he was doing a lot of the old threads in this forum. Any time you watch a trailer, Quick Look, Review, etc.

Are you telling me you blindly buy games? Because I usually have a decent idea of what I'm getting into when I buy games. It kinda bugs me that Jeff refers to every game with cars in it as a "driving" game. I think there's quite a large distinction between a "driving" game and a "racing" game. Either they allowable power If you want be sure tier fix Ping Limit. Dota determined by their rating other hidden factors. Are we looking at dealing parties Social Warzone well. Considered as one of crucial factors to ensure pervasive discovery extremely-low, very-low, very-high, extremely-high.

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